Dr. Sally Goerner Discusses Chaos, Complexity & Social Transition — Interview

This is an interview I recently conducted w/ general systems theorist Dr. Sally J. Goerner. While not focusing on Cold Fusion-LENR per se, it does focus on how a society might transition (aka self-organize) during a time of tumultuous change. It seems to me that CF-LENR, as well as the hope & uncertainty that accompanies it, is undoubtedly part of this complex “bifurcation point” in planetary history. I think the success of CF-LENR depends as much on humanity discovering innovative and/or “emergent” social arrangements, aka “cooperative modes” — and the two technologies will mutually reinforce one another through feedback. The dialogue is rather long, so I have provided an outline below. Thanks for taking an interest:

0.min-10.min: Dr. Goerner’s eclectic background; general systems theory; studying under Ralph Abraham; patterns & strange attractors; physical vs. spiritual; order-producing universe; energy network science vs. chaos theory; popular misconceptions surrounding chaos theory; lost meaning & lost science

10.min-20.min: Energy flow networks; self-organization vs. classical mechanization; basic elements of chaos theory; complementarity & chaos; boiling water & hydrodynamic self-organization; autopoetic cycles; bifurcation points

20.min-30.min: Orders & David Bohm; entropy as a subtle form of order; quantum chaos; fractal orders; particles as localized energy flow; linear vs. non-linear systems; importance of coupling; determinism

30.min-40.min: Reconceptualizing evolution; information & self-organization produce evolution; adapting to information & crises; co-evolution & stages of consciousness; fractal hierarchy & panarchy; distributed power & learning to listen; autopoetic genesis of DNA; Freeman Dyson’s energy accident

40.min-50.min: Holographic DNA; Stephen Jay Gould; aperiodic evolutionary jumps; Darwinism & elite politics; fallacy of Social-Darwinism; Dawkins & free-market society; How the Leopard Changed Its Spots; development of the prefrontal cortex; reforming economics & finance; economics as a complex metabolism; appealing to power-brokers; bio-mimicry & development; needs hierarchies & dysfunction

50.min-60.min: Necessary conditions for self-organization; corruption; focus on what energizes you; thinking outside the box; reading & synthesizing; the politics of resignation; transition from medieval worldview to modern age; distortion of society’s root metaphor; After the Clockwork Universe

60.min-69.min: Bifurcations & social change; Jean Gebser & integral society; solutions & education; local order & global order; restoring integrity; reciprocity & the science of cooperation; time-banking; beyond charity; banking reform; international development of networks vs. GDP growth; constraining metrics & NGOs

Also see:

Dr. Edmund Storms Explains LENR Theory — Interview

Dr. Brian Ahern Explains Non-Linear LENR — Interview

9 Replies to “Dr. Sally Goerner Discusses Chaos, Complexity & Social Transition — Interview”

  1. Many thanks Ruby, most people I think have completely lost any care or use for the word TRUTH.
    Science being the best example where students are pounded with almost nothing but religious reductionist Dogma proclaimed by their holy priests.
    Not as should be, to question every subject with new insight etc.
    Funding, position, ego, closed-minds, incompetence even corruption drag this profession down from excellence to worse than mediocrity.
    Cold Fusion is just one of many simple examples of this failure and it can easily be shown that the delays could have led to much suffering and death.
    Articles and thinkers such as John Maguire, because of the Internet, have a chance to change this intolerable position, but are there enough people able or willing to think outside of their establishment conditioning.

    1. Thanks for the kind words George — I think reductionism has its place, but it is antiquated and no longer appropriate for the times we find ourselves in generally speaking. I think a systems approach to thinking is needed in many fields. I do think CF-LENR is one of those “complex” phenomenon that clearly don’t fit into the reductionist “box” so to speak, and will require a “systems approach” to understanding. CF-LENR proved to be more “biological” in terms of replication, and because of this highly unpredictable complexity inherent to the system, physicists chose to attack it than understand it.

  2. When Dr. Goerner mentioned how society changes when the tribe gets bigger than 350 people it reminded of Thomas Sheridan’s study of psychopaths and how charming psychopaths would not be able to take over and flourish in a small tribe the way they have today.

    1. Alan — Yes there might be something to that. Once you get beyond a certain number, that “communal pressure” and threat of excommunication from the tribe is less likely. And at the same time people’s individual “power process” tends to be stunted in larger groups as well. So you combine this environmentally generated, insecurity-premised “quest for power”, w/ an ability to shield one’s self from excommunication due to lack of communal cohesion/power, and you have a dangerous mix. At the same time I think a lot of this results from people not actually being conscious of how this process works. If people were more aware of transition points and how things change at different scales, they could much better manage the inevitable chaos that intervenes now and then into a system.

  3. I think Dr. Goerner would like this book. One of the most fascinating books I’ve read was: “Research in Physiopathology as Basis of Guided Chemotherapy” by Emanuel Revici.

    What Copernicus did for astronomy Revici did for medicine. In the 1920s he found that the body cycles between two states, an anabolic phase were it builds up and repairs (were sterols predominate) and a catabolic state (were conjugated fatty acids predominate). Healthy people cycle between the two phases. Sick people are usually stuck in one of the two. And remember that he did this in the 1920s with primitive analytical techniques (like ozonolysis to find these conjugated tetraene fatty acids).
    For example he did some clinical trials with heroin addicts in Harlem, NY witnessed by Congressman Charles Rangel (I think). He found that heroin puts people into an anabolic state and that the body defends against it by making large amounts of conjugated tetraene fatty acids (in an attempt to bring it back to homeostasis). When the addict abruptly stops taking heroin the accumulated conjugated fatty acids would throw the addict into an extremely catabolic state (“cold turkey”). Revici would inject lipid soluble oxidizing substance that would oxidized the fatty acids and get the addicts out of “cold turkey” in about 45 minutes!

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