A Closer Look at Brillouin

As has been pointed out previously, as developments regarding LENR continue to occur at an increasing pace, and from a growing number of individuals and companies, it is sometimes difficult to keep track of relevant news. In the last article, I tried to bring everybody up-to-date with news regarding Defkalion as they transitioned from Greece to Canada. Now I would like to take a closer look at Brillouin Energy Corporation.

For those who have been following the story closely, there is nothing new to report per se. Many are already aware that Brillouin, as reported first here on Cold Fusion Now, has received a patent for their technology from the Chinese government. They have also entered into a formal agreement with SRI International to further develop and scale up their NHB (New Hydrogen Boiler) technology as the next step towards commercialization. BEC has also negotiated with Sunrise Securities of New York, NY, for a “second stage” $20 million conditional investment agreement. If Brillouin meets the conditions set out in the agreement, which includes making a preliminary agreement to retrofit a small (5-10 MW) conventional power plant, the $20 million investment from Sunset Securities will make Brillouin the most robustly capitalized company in the LENR field.

In this article I would like to bring attention to two presentations given by Brillouin in the last few months. The first is a document the company presented at ICCF-17. Most readers of this site were unable to attend the conference in South Korea and may have missed Brillouin’s disclosure of recent experiments done with Michael McKubre of SRI International. Many have heard of this collaboration but have been unable to look at the data. A PDF of this presentation has been available on-line but many are not aware of it or have not had the access or inclination to view it. With the permission of Robert Godes, CTO and president of Brillouin, I have reformatted the PDF to fit on this web site in order to provide access to a greater number of people. Secondly, at the bottom of the page, I have included a slide show presentation released by Brillouin that outlines the technology and gives an overview of their plans for commercialization. This presentation also includes details of their agreement with Sunrise Securities (see slide #14).

I hope readers find this information enlightening and that it will foster a better understanding of the important and careful work being done by BEC. I hope you will refer interested friends and colleagues to this article for that same purpose.

Controlled Electron Capture and the Path Toward Commercialization

Robert Godes[1], Robert George[1], Francis Tanzella[2], and Michael McKubre2 [1] Brillouin Energy Corp., United States, reg@brillouinenergy.com [2] SRI International, United States


We have run over 150 experiments using two different cell/calorimeter designs. Excess power has always been seen using Q pulses tuned to the resonance of palladium and nickel hydrides in pressurized vessels. Excess energies of up to 100% have been seen using this excitation method.

Index Terms– Cold Neutrons, Electrolysis, Electron Capture, Excess Heat.


We started with the hypothesis that metal hydrides stimulated at frequencies related to the lattice phonon resonance would cause protons or deuterons to undergo controlled electron capture. If this hypothesis is true then less hydride material would be needed to produce excess power. Also, this should lead to excess power (1) on demand, (2) from light H2O electrolysis, and (3) from the hydrides of Pd, Ni, or any matrix able to provide the necessary confinement of hydrogen and obtain a Hamiltonian value greater than 782KeV. Also, the excess power effect would be enhanced at high temperatures and pressures.

Brillouin’s lattice stimulation reverses the natural decay of neutrons to protons and Beta particles, catalyzing this endothermic step. Constraining a proton spatially in a lattice causes the lattice energy to be highly uncertain. With the Hamiltonian of the system reaching 782KeV for a proton or 3MeV for a deuteron the system may be capable of capturing an electron, forming an ultra-cold neutron or di-neutron system. The almost stationary ultra-cold neutron(s) occupies a position in the metal lattice where another dissolved hydrogen is most likely to tunnel in less than a nanosecond, forming a deuteron / triton / quadrium by capturing the cold neutron and releasing binding energy.

This would lead to helium through a Beta decay. The expected half-life of the beta decay: if J_(4H)=0−, 1−, 2−, τ1/2 ≥ 10 min; if J_(4H)=0+, 1+, τ1/2 ≥ 0.03 sec[1]. Personal correspondence with Dr. D. R. Tilley confirmed that the result of such a reaction would be β¯ decay to 4He.

Early Pd/H2O electrolysis experiments used a well-mixed, open electrolysis cell in a controlled flowing air enclosure. The temperature probes were verified to +/- 0.1°C at 70°C and +/- 0.3°C at 100°C. We simultaneously ran live and blank (resistive heater) cells, maintaining identical constant input power in both cells. High-voltage, bipolar, narrow pulses were sent through the cathode and separately pulse-width modulated (PWM) electrolysis through the cell (between the anode and cathode). Input power was measured using meters designed to measure power high frequency (HF) PWM systems. NaOH solutions were used for high conductivity. Differential thermometry suggested excess power up to 42% and 9W (Fig. 4[2]).


Fig. 1 Components of the Brillouin Wet Boiler

Our recent test data were generated autonomously through the use of a fully instrumented pressurized test vessel that permits much greater control over experiments than was possible using the “open container” test cells from Phase One experiments.

A. Reactor Components

The components of the most recent closed-cell Wet Boiler are shown in Fig. 1.

Those components include:

• A 130bar pressure vessel with a band heater

• A 28AWG (.31mm) Ni 270 cathode

• Ni 270 wire mesh anode

• 0.5 liter of 0.15 to .5M NaOH solution

• Thermal transfer oil coolant loop with a heat exchanger. MobilTherm 603

• Platinum resistive temperature detector’s (RTD’s) measuring input and output coolant temperatures.

• Mass Flow meter in the coolant line.

• An catalytic recombiner , used for safety.

• Resistance heater for calorimetric calibration

B. Power Measurements

We performed conservative measurement of the input power into the reaction chamber and the control board. All inputs, including inductive and logic circuits losses, are counted as power applied to the system All power used for stimulation and control of the cell is measured. The power delivered to the band heater is provided by a Chroma 61602 programmable AC source.

A 100 MHz Fluke 196C oscilloscope meter, operating in “AC (rms) + DC” mode, was used to measure the all input cell power applied to the primary control system. Output power is calculated from the heat removed from the inside of the test cell by pumping an organic fluid (MobileTherm 603) through a heat exchanger immersed in the electrolyte inside the cell. The electrolyte is heated by the stimulation of the electrodes. An external heat exchanger extracts heat from the circulating organic fluid. The net heat in and out is carefully measured and the difference is tabulated. The flow rate is measured by a positive displacement flow sensor (Kytola 2950-2-AKTN). 100Ω platinum RTD’s are used to measure the cooling fluid’s inlet and outlet temperatures, placed just before and just after the cooling loop, respectively. Room temperature in the immediate environment of the test cell is also measured using a 100Ω platinum RTD.

Heat also escapes from the test cell via conductive and radiative loses. Heat flows out of the test cell through the top of the test cell, its supporting brackets to a shelf, and through its insulation. This is accounted for in the software, following extensive calibrations of the cell running with out stimulation pulses (Q).

The bias of the measurement scheme is to under-report thermal output. The electrolysis recombination activity in the headspace of the vessel increases the amount of the conduction and radiative losses at the top of the cell as it heats up and conducts more thermal energy through its mechanical supports. These losses become less significant at higher operation rates as the recombination heat layer moves down to the point where the heat exchange can begin to pick up more of that recombination energy.

C. Cell Calibration and Operation

This system recovers 98% of the heat input by the control band heater alone. The circulating oil is not able to remove all of the recombination energy in the test cell. A significant amount of the recombination energy escapes by conduction through the brackets that secure the cell to the shelf that holds it in place. The method chosen to measure these parasitic heat losses is simple and accurate. The test cell has an electric resistance heating unit called the band heater. The band heater uses a known quantity of watts to heat the entire system to a selected temperature: 70, 80 or 100 degrees C. It takes 132 watts from the band heater to heat and hold the vessel to 70 degrees C with the cooling oil circulating in the cooling circuit. Measurements of the circulating oil show that the oil continuously removes 90 watts at this set point. The difference (delta) is 42 watts and this is the amount heat is “lost” from the vessel by thermal conduction and radiated heat. At 80 degrees C, the calculated parasitic loss figure is 45 watts and at 100 degrees C the parasitic loss is 47 watts.

Using this simple technique, at these three set points the amount of heat leaves the system in excess of that removed by the circulating oil is quantified to calibrate the measurements. This information is used in the data shown in the following slides. Table 1 shows the parasitic heat losses at 70, 80 and 100°C.


Table of Calibration Power Loss Terms


The cell/calorimeter is designed to operate at up to 200°C and up to 130bar. The pressurized cell is controlled using LabView® software (National Instruments, Austin, TX, USA) that continuously and automatically collects information about energy flow in and out of the test cell. All experimental data are methodically and systematically archived and recorded to disk. The thermal load due to radiative and conductive losses, in addition to that collected by the heat exchanger, are approximately 400 watts at a vessel temperature of 100°C but can achieve more than 2000 watts at 200°C. The working fluid’s inlet temperature is maintained using a re-circulating chiller (Neslab RTE111).

During operation we have applied up to 800 total watts. The only input to the system is electric power and the only output from the system is heat.

The AC stimulation consists of alternating high voltage positive and negative pulses, approximately 100ns wide, of duty cycles up to 1% or repetition rates of up to 100 KHz


Representative results of experiments operated in our pressurized cell/calorimeter are described below. Excess power is defined as the number of watts generated in the cell exceeding that supplied to the cell. The ratio of output to input power is often plotted as percentage.

When the output, for example, is twice that of the input, the amount of excess power is 100%.

The following experiments described herein were designed to measure excess power produced using proprietary electrical stimulation of nickel containing dissolved hydrogen.

A. Experiment 1

Experiment 1 yielded excess power of over 50% for approximately 2 days. Fig. 2 shows the calorimetric results and effect of stimulation frequency soon after 50% excess power was measured in the cell.

Fig. 2. Calorimetric results from experiment 1

The amount of excess power shown on the screen is approximately 59 %. During this time period there was 107 watts in, 170 watts out, yielding 63 watts excess power, with the cell temperature at 76°C and pressure of 84bar. Approximately 32 watts power was applied to the catalyst and is included in the 107W total input power.

B. Experiment 2

Fig. 3 plots the power and temperature recorded during a complete 66-hour Ni/H2O electrolysis experiment.

Fig. 3. Plot of power and temperature versus time for Experiment 1

Excess power of over 50% was recorded for much of this experiment. We repetitively swept Q repetition rate while stepping up Q amplitude and then a third parameter affecting Q shape to examine the effects and interplay among them.

The excess heat produced during this run shown in Figure 3 declined as additional power was applied. The red line plots the percentage of excess power, blue the sum of the electrical inputs, and green the temperature of the test cell. The repetitive spikes in the data are due to the cycling of Q repetition rate and the downward sloping trend indicates the increase in power to a change in the shape of the Q pulses. This slide indicates that the level of the production of excess power does not rely exclusively on input power since increasing input power reduced absolute amount of excess power. The automated test system now has the ability to automatically sequence 4 separate input variables. When the Q pulse shape stepped out of an optimal operating point the red and blue plots crossed.

C. Experiment 3

Fig. 4 plots the calorimetric and temperature data for a subsequent Ni/H2O electrolysis experiment.

Fig. 4. Calorimetric data for Experiment 3

In this experiment we examined the effect of changing specific input parameters. This plot shows a thermal output 50% greater than input for 14 hours. A gradual increase in temperature tracks small incremental increases in both the DC and AC currents. This continued for 12 hours past the end of this plot as seen in Fig. 5., which shows the sharp response of the system to input power while everything else was held constant.

Fig. 5. Calorimetric results from Experiment 3 continued

A jump in excess heat from less than 55% to almost 70% was produced using the settings input during the second half of the experiment on February 15th. Learning from this data, we modified electric inputs to exceed these results.

D. Experiment 4

Fig. 6 plots the calorimetric and temperature data for part of a Ni/H2O electrolysis experiment. While holding total input power constant Q pulse shape was changed, which yielded excess power production in excess of 75% for approximately 11 hours.

Fig. 6. Calorimetric results from Experiment 4

After achieving a thermal steady state, the system performed well for the duration of the test. Subsequently a new set of input parameters were utilized in this experiment, after which the excess power peaked at approximately 85% and was above 80% for more than seven hours.E. Experiment 5

Fig. 7 plots the calorimetric and temperature data for part of a Ni/H2O electrolysis experiment.

Fig. 7. Calorimetric results from Experiment 5

This was the first time the excess power exceeded 100%, meaning the “watts out” were twice the “watts in.” Certain electrical inputs to the cell were changed deliberately in a proprietary manner effecting Q frequency content.

This experiment is important because it shows both our upward discovery trend and because it exceeded the important 100% milestone. These set of representative experiments showed that we have progressed well beyond the results with the open-cell experiments described in the Background section.

F. Experiment 6

Experiment 6 shows the effect of changing the repetition rate of the high voltage stimulation pulses. Figure 8 plots the input and output powers, percent excess power, and the Q pulse repetition rate. Output power is shown in blue, input power is shown in green, and excess is shown in red as a percentage. The proprietary repetition rate of the pulses is plotted without scale in turquoise.

Fig. 8 Effect of Repetition Rate on Excess Power

For five days, excess power from the induced thermal reaction in nickel hydride averaged approximately 20% during times when the wave form at a given repetition rate was applied to the nickel hydride. Total applied power was above 450 watts. When the repetition rate was reduced excess power fell significantly, even though the input power rose. On seven different occasions when total applied power to the system was above 450 watts, and the repetition rate was reduced, excess power dropped from approximately 20% to close essentially 0%. Excess power returned quickly to approximately 20% when the repetition rate was restored to its original value.

This plot demonstrates a cause and effect relationship exists between the frequency of the applied waveform pulses (Q) and the amount of excess power produced in the test cell.


We have demonstrated that the nickel-light-water system is able to achieve more than 100% excess heat production (“2X”). Recent data shows that excess heat production was in the range of 110% for 2 hours.

We ran over 150 experiments using two different cell/calorimeter designs. Excess heat was always seen[3] in experiments where Q pulses, which have been tuned to the resonance of the hydride conductors (“core”), are present. Using our open cell design it is now possible to get excess heat on demand using light water and hydrided nickel and palladium.

Pulsed power in the cathode is the preferred method to raise the energy of the Brillouin zones confining hydrogen nuclei in the metal lattice[1]. We postulate that conversion of this energy to mass, results in the production of cold to ultra-cold neutrons. The removal of charge from the system by absorption of an electron by a proton makes a current pulse the preferred source of pulsed power because it provides electrons for capture.

In all cases, the application of a suitable Quantum Compression waveform enables active hydrided materials to produce excess power on demand without regard to the grain structure. While it is common for “gross loading” systems to work with some pieces of material and not others from the same batch. We believe that the Quantum Reactor technology caused every centimeter in all 15 meters of Pd wire to immediately produce excess heat while exposed to properly pulsed currents in light water. Quantum Reactor technology also allows for significant modulation of the power out of the cell.

Leveraging the results of the open cell experiments, the proprietary circuitry was attached to hydrided conductors in high-pressure, high-temperature systems for the sealed cell experiments[2].

The data taken from nickel-hydrogen system that was stimulated by our proprietary electronic inputs show that the thermal output is statistically significantly greater than the electrical input. Measurable and repeatable surplus thermal output is found in the nickel-hydrogen system when all other inputs to the cells remain constant. We have shown 100% excess energy and hope to achieve 200%, which would make the technology industrially useful. We also believe that the moderately elevated pressure and temperature environment of the pressurized cell may increase the probability for proton-electron captures, than the conditions at ambient temperature and pressure, because the electrolyte can be heated to over the boiling point of the electrolyte at atmospheric pressure. In addition to elevated temperature and pressure, the dimensions of the metal cathode inside the test cell, is much larger than what was used in the “open container”, first- round experiments.

We conclude that the reaction producing excess power in the nickel hydride is related to and very dependent upon the frequency of the Q pulses applied. We have thus demonstrated that there is a repeatable and measurable relationship between excess heat production from the stimulated nickel hydride in the test cell and the repetition rate of the applied electronic pulses. When the repetition rate is changed from the optimum frequency, excess power production ceases in the nickel hydride lattice. When that repetition rate is restored, significant excess power production resumes.


We are looking closely at the experimental data from Experiment 5 and will use it to attempt to break through the next threshold 200% (“3X”) hopefully soon.

We have started to perform experiments in a third cell/calorimeter design in collaboration with SRI International that we believe will lead to more useful heat by operating at higher temperatures. We feel that the first commercial applications expected will be hydronic heating systems that require grid power and produce lower quality heat as well as higher quality heat systems that will be used to re-power existing dirty generation assets.

In addition to Pd and Ni, the Q-pulse reactor system should work with other transition metals that confine hydrogen nuclei sufficiently in a lattice to effect electron capture events.


A. Controlled Energy Capture Hypothesis

p + ~782KeV + e- » n + νe
(using energy for ultra-cold neutrons)

p + n » d + 2.2MeV
(making ultra-cold deuterons and energy)

d + (up to 3MeV) + e- » 2n + νe
(using energy to make di-neutron system)

d + n » T + 6.3MeV
(making tritum and energy)

2n + d » 4H + (?MeV)

3n + p » 4H + (?MeV)
(making short lived 4H nuclei and energy.)

4H » 4He + β¯+ νe + (17.06 to 20.6)MeV
(making helium and lots of energy)


[1] D.R. Tilley and H.R. Weller
Energy Levels of Light Nuclei A = 4

[2] R. Godes, “Brillouin Energy Corp. Phase One Data,”

[3] R. Godes, “Quantum Reactor Technology, Exciting New Science, Potential Clean Energy Source,”

[4] R. Godes, “Brillouin Phase II Data,”

Brillouin slide show courtesy of BEC via Slide Share

Visit the Brillouin Energy Corp. web site here

Brillouin Energy patent granted in China

Brillouin Energy of Berkeley, California has been granted a patent for their hot-water boiler technology in China.

Patents had been submitted in countries around the world with Japan “not rejecting” the patent and “some back and forth” on the patent in the European Union, but as with virtually all submissions referencing this new energy technology in North America, the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) rejected the application. Cold Fusion Now’s David J. French reviewed the rejection in this article from last May.

Further, though no product is currently slated for public release and the company is still prototyping their commercial design, an Original Equipment Manufacturing (OEM) company has contacted Brillouin with interest in licensing the technology.

The Chinese patent is a huge breakthrough for commercial development of this ultra-clean energy technology. Any duplicate technologies released in the United States would force the USPTO to grant the Brillouin patent, and compel the other company to negotiate with the Brillouin Energy Corporation. This would necessitate a break in the long-standing Department of Energy (DoE) policy that refuses to acknowledge the existence of cold fusion, also called low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR), lattice-assisted nuclear reactions (LANR), and quantum fusion, and which influences USPTO policy.

Brillouin Energy has just recently begun a partnership with SRI International of Menlo Park, California to test both the science and technology developed under the guidance of Robert E. Godes, the Founder, President and Chief Technical Officer at Brillouin Energy. It was in this capacity that Brillouin was able to garner funding for their hot-water boiler design that used a nickel cathode and regular water (H2O) to create the energy-producing excess heat.

That funding allowed Brillouin to expand their team, adding seven additional engineers and physicists, along with the handful of non-technical support staff and three law firms helping the corporation in various aspects to move this revolutionary energy technology forward.

The Brillouin lab is currently engineering a new gas-loaded design that will run at much higher temperatures, thereby increasing the power output. The Brillouin Hydrogen Hot Tube (HHT)™ is the core reactor of the new design.

Essentially, it is a tube containing the catalytic material with the metal nickel that allows for control over the flow of hydrogen gas as well the Q-pulses, the electromagnetic pulses that start and drive the reaction.

The company has been successful with the nickel environment, but is also working on a new architecture that uses titanium and tungsten in the core generator.

Godes says the new dry-cell designs require Brillouin to raise more capital funding to expand the pace of work.

“We’re not saying we’ll have a product right away, but we have a technology that we know can be developed, and we’re working with all possible speed to get it to market.”

Related Links

More News on Brillouin Energy Corp patent filing by David French May 25, 2012

New kid on the block? – Brillouin Energy Corporation by David French April 23, 2012

Brillouin Energy interview on Ca$h Flow: “We can re-power coal plants with LENR” by Ruby Carat March 28, 2012

Brillouin Energy Quantum Fusion animations by Ruby Carat March 21, 2012

Funding dam almost breaks for Brillouin Boiler that uses – water! by Ruby Carat July 7, 2011

Brillouin Energy Home

SRI International Home

Brillouin Energy interview on Ca$h Flow: “We can re-power coal plants with LENR”

Continuing the Cold Fusion Radio series of interviews with the researchers and policy makers in the field of new energy, Brillouin Energy‘s Chief Executive Officer Robert George and Chief Technical Officer Robert E. Godes joined James Martinez on Ca$h Flow Tuesday, March 27, 2012.

A cold fusion economy is happening right now. Listen in as an independent, new energy company emerges from the Left Coast to talk about what’s next for their Brillouin Boiler, a hot-water heater based on clean cold fusion reactions. A partial summary of the conversation follows.

For the full audio interview, download .mp3

They had initially turned down an interview over a year ago but, as Robert George says, “After ten years of work by Robert Godes, he’s duplicated a control system in the laboratory that is able to start and stop the reaction to get the boiler to run steady state and sometime later next month, we will be working with SRI International to do another version which will operate at a higher operating temperature. So its an exciting time for the company. But the situation as far as financing remains very difficult. We’ve had angel investors and we’ve been very fortunate. We have circled a million dollars right now, and we’re trying to close on the other half of that two million dollar financing so we can basically bring this thing to market and get strategic partners lined up.”

Robert E. Godes says the big difference between Brillouin Energy and what others are doing is control. “Brillouin Energy designs all of its reaction systems based on the hypothesis that was published in Infinite Energy and is available on our website. But we’re actually driving the underlying physics, which gives you control over the reaction. Once you understand the physics, you can turn it on, you can turn it off, and to some extent you can control how much heat you’re getting out of the system.”

James cut to the heart of the matter and asked why and how their system generates consistent output, starting and stopping on-demand.

Godes says, “I think probably alot of your listeners may have heard of Rossi and that there’s copper and natural copper showing up in his thing. I think if they were to do an isotopic analysis of the copper that’s showed up in Rossi’s reaction systems, and is probably also showing up in Defkalion’s, although I don’t think anybody’s actually seen anything from them yet, I think that the preponderance of copper that shows up there would probably be Copper 63 and Copper 65 which are the two naturally occurring isotopes of copper.”

“The reason for that is the LENR reaction is a weak interaction. It’s a two step reaction. The first step is actually endothermic, which means that it absorbs energy. The exothermic part, which is much more exothermic than the endothermic part, is when neutrons accumulate onto another nucleus within the lattice. Ideally you have them accumulate onto other hydrogen nuclei that are within the lattice, which is always an exothermic event, or it doesn’t matter whether it accumulates on a nickel or palladium, that’s also an exothermic event, it releases alot of energy.”

“We actually call our system a Controlled Election Capture Reaction. What you do is you want to control the creation of the neutrons, and you generate a neutron by causing a proton to capture an

James asked about the timeline for bringing a product to the market.

George responded, “We have two systems, one is what we call a wet boiler, that’ll operate at 140 degrees Celsius, and the second system, which we’ll be doing with SRI International, will operate in the 400-450C.”

“We’re looking at 12 to 18 months to bring it to strategic partners. We don’t plan to become a manufacturer, we’re going to be a licensor. Obviously, the boiler manufacturers already have the ability to do the heat exchangers and so forth, and what we’ll be providing is a system that will be the new boiler, it’ll be the heat source, and they’ll do the heat exchangers, and heat your domestic hot water in your home, your commercial building, and the other system should actually be capable of generating electric power out of some of the retiring coal-fired electric power plants.”

George continued “It’s an exciting time. With our dependance on oil, it couldn’t come at a better time. I’m really excited to work with Robert Godes. I’ve basically adopted the philosophy that he has, that the best way to predict the future is to invent it. He’s basically invented a control system to capitalize on a system that was originally discovered 23 years ago by Pons and Fleischmann and people have been unable to make it work consistently. Alot of people have gotten alot of heat out of it, but they haven’t been able to control it.”

“I really admire Robert Godes because he’s an electrical engineer. He basically started from the ground up, and worked up a system that can actually control the reaction, which is what his area of expertise is. That’s where he’s filed his patents. You gotta admire the guy, he’s stuck to it for the last ten years, sacrificing home and family to get this to market. You really have to respect somebody that’ll do that.”

“That’s how you change the world, a little bit at a time.”

“I was very passionate about America leading the world in this”, James said, “and should lead the world, since it started here.”

“Well I gotta say, because of your position and your philosophy, that’s the one reason why Robert Godes and I wanted to do the interview with you first and foremost, because we agree with you. All this activity in Israel and Italy and all these people making outrageous claims, it helps the field a little bit and hurts alot.”

“That’s why we’ve been quiet because we wanted to get our system operational, we wanted to be able to show people a system that’s running, and we wanted to make sure our technology is sound. So we’re moving in that direction, we’re excited about it, and this next round will bring us, we believe, to the goalpost.”

“How many people does Brillouin have working on your system now?” James asked.

“Technical people, we have about nine engineers,” said Mr. George, “then on our advisory board we have a group of scientists that basically advise us on everything from fluid dynamics and thermodynamics to configurations. We have Dr. Michael McKubre from SRI International who is one of the world-renowned experts on cold fusion. We have a variety of people.”

“He was a skeptic originally when Robert Godes first talked to him and he’s come over to believing on our side. He’s been doing alot of work with heavy water reactions for the controlled electron capture,
and now he believes as we do that you can use it with regular water in a pressurized system, and that’s what we’re working on.”

James then wanted to know how they would be able to meet a commercial demand that would be strong, and immediate.

“There are any number of different sizes of pressure vessels which we use in our wet boiler, and so we expect that the commercial systems will probably be 20-30% more than a current boiler and about the same size. We’re talking about, for a residential application, a pressure tank about the size of a scuba tank, the electronics which Robert Godes has developed and patented through Patrick Townzend, basically a heat exchanger which the boiler manufacturers all over the country have the capability of doing, that’s why we don’t want to become a manufacturer, we won’t become a competitor. And they’ll be able to substitute Brillouin Boilers in where you now have a coal-fired, oil-fired, gas-fired, electric boilers providing the heat, and maybe you have additional heat exchangers to transfer to the building. But this system is basically going to be a one-on-one replacement.”

Robert Godes was asked about the status of his patents.

“Currently the patents are applied for. We have one large patent applied for and that initial application was actually granted in China. We’re ??? in Japan right now. We recently filed an update with the USPTO to keep the US application alive.”

“Until somebody comes out with an actual product, it’s unlikely that USPTO will grant a patent to Brillouin Energy or to anybody, even to Zawodny at NASA, which is a another story.”

“We actually just had a significant interaction with the examiner of the USPTO. The guy that’s examining our patent worked quite a bit in the plasma fusion arena for a number of years, and now is in semi-retirement working as a patent examiner, he’s kind of rooting for the cold fusion crowd, but the edict has been handed down from on high that they’re not to grant any patents in this field, which is a really sad state of affairs. The fiasco that happened in 1989 is still bogging us here in the United States.”

Given the state of the world, and what the potential is with this technology, James felt that “there should be an international consortium where all the major players in cold fusion to come together and make some decisions on how to proceed” in regards to intellectual property.

“Well, you know, between two people you can have friendship, between three or more you wind up with politics,” said Godes. “We’ve been approached by somebody whose trying to put together a conglomerate of everybody that’s got intellectual property involved in the field.”

“And we’re in the process of talking to them,” continued George, “because the exchange of ideas is always helpful. The US has consistently been a leader in technology and it seems that between the Naval Research Lab and NASA, the US government has taken a serious interest in this. We’ve had visits from the Naval Research Lab folks from Washington, DC. They’ve come out to the lab to look at our system. They’re planning to come back in the next several months with additional test and analysis equipment.”

“And probably due to your efforts, there’s been alot of commercial interest. We’ve had alot of major corporations coming to meet with us in the last couple of months. Creating an awareness that there is a technology here that makes sense and there’s an alternative to fossil fuels, is probably the biggest challenge.”

James remarked that most people he talks too go straight to ‘how much is it going to cost me, and can I charge my electric car with it’. “What do you say to that?”, he asked.

Robert George answered, “The high-end system that will easily generate electricity, we’re looking at potentially, from our cost analysis, about 1 cent per kilowatt hour, but that’s on a commercial system. For a residential application, to get a higher R-value, or COP on it, we’re talking about a turbine, not something you don’t currently have right now. We’re talking about just having the boiler.”

After the half-time break, James wanted to take it back to the patents. “What do you think of the patent application of Dr. Zawodny?”

Godes responded, “Well, I was actually a little disappointed at they way that was submitted. From what I can tell, he looked at Widom and Larson, which I think you’ve covered them on this show, and I know that Steven Krivit of the New Energy Times is a big fan of Widom and Larsen, and I think they have the part where they say its a Weak Nuclear Reaction going on is absolutely correct.”

“Then the other kind of pivotal work that Zawodny drew on, which was disclosed publicly many years ago, is Dennis Cravens and Dennis Letts that did alot of work using lasers and interference beats to excite the lattice and stimulate the reaction, and then the group at University of Missouri has been doing alot of work with patterning the surface.”

“All of that has to do with stimulation of phonons. They call them, Zawodny and Letts, surface plasmons, which is a form of a phonon. A phonon is a vibration in the lattice. The kind of funny thing is when you use a laser, you can really only stimulate surface phonons, the plasmons on the device, and they’re looking at patterning the surface to try and improve the reaction, using lasers.”

“But the reality is that you need to stimulate just a little bit below the surface. You can get it going with plasmons, but of course that causes the water to boil, and boiling water has bubbles in it, and bubbles make great lenses, and its going to be really hard to build an industrially useful system where you’re using lasers to stimulate it and get it to go.”

“So its great. I’m really glad that Zawodny filed the patent because it made kind of a big splash, it’s like look, NASA is serious about this stuff – it’s real! And it is real.”

James “Yes, thank you! You know I still deal with people to this day who don’t believe it, even when you show them the evidence!”

Godes continued, “Robert George was part of that crew. Rob Duncan in the 60 minutes interview, when he first went to check out Energetics Technologies when they were still in Israel before they moved to the University of Missouri said ‘Well that was completely debunked back in 1989, wasn’t it?’. And you know, most people still think that’s what it was.”

“It’s real people. The phenomenon is real. It’s just that nobody understood the physics behind it. Once you understand the physics behind it, then it’s really just a matter of engineering to make it real, and that’s what Brillouin Energy is engaging in, engineering work.”

James asked him why has the technology been so difficult to understand?

“The reason for that is that, is it’s very multi-disciplined in nature. The only conference that I’ve actually taken my work to was ICCF-14 in Washington, DC. The people I was working with indirectly introduced me to our CEO Robert George. They asked me ‘are you going to go to ICCF-14’, it was two weeks before the deadline, and I said ‘no they’re all barking up the wrong tree, and they don’t want to hear from me, because I’m saying it can work with ordinary water and palladium, and I’ve got the data to prove it’. And they said ‘no, you have to go to that conference…..'” So I submitted my white paper which was actually published in Infinite Energy Magazine issue #82 and the pre-print of the article is actually on the website.”

“So I went and they were glad to have me on the one hand because I was bringing new ideas, but on the other, they were a little suspicious, kind of like McKubre when I first went and I talked to him, and said this is with ordinary water and palladium. Yeah! You can really run it with ordinary water and palladium.”

“At the conference, they can communicate with people in their own field, but the problem is this is a very multi-disciplined action in the LENR reaction. So I put together this whole powerpoint which is actually available on the website. Click on the Technology link at the bottom of our website.”

“There’s slides on chemistry, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, mechanics of materials, …..you don’t have to be an expert in all those areas, you have to be able to understand at least some aspects of all those different areas.”

“Unless you put all that information together, you cannot have an industrial useful product.”

“When people come to the lab and technical people come to vet us about the technology I always ask what’s your discipline, what’s your background, so I can tailor the discussion so they can understand it from their perspective, because everyone has a different perspective.”

Later in the interview, Mr. Godes states that he knows how to control the E-Cat, and its there for Mr. Rossi to look at in his intellectual property filings. A lack of system control, and other critical components needed to stabilize the reaction which are missing in the E-Cat, is why he doesn’t believe that Leonardo Technologies or Defkalion Green Technologies have an actual product.

“There’s something with process variation you can do called binning, and he sees that as one of the solutions for Mr. Rossi to issues of control and on-demand power.”

Godes “You take everything that operates between A and B and put that in one bin. And you take all the other bits and pieces that operate between B and C and put those in another bin, between C and D put those in another bin, so you can assemble modules that are going to operate in the same range. But I don’t think he can reliably turn his units off and then back on again.”

“I love it. Your changing the world right on the radio!” James laughed.

“I’d like to see these guys actually start shipping something! It will really explode the field! People, money would start pouring in, and I would get the money that I need to engineer a system that is really, truly, industrially useful and we’d have something that people could put under the hood of their car!”

James asks, could America lead the world on this, like when the car was first built.

“America could, but right now politics in America would rather shoot each other in the foot”, said Godes. “There’s so many things that they could do, they absolutely will not. Michael McKubre who is working at SRI is one of the top people at one of the top research institutions in the country, and he can’t get any money to study this phenomenon.”

And yet, “Soyndra goes belly up with half a billion.”

Is the Brillouin Boiler going to be conventionally priced compared to existing fossil fuel systems?

“Absolutely”, said George, “the raw cost of the system should be about 30% higher than a conventional fossil fuel boiler. The system is quite simple, the electronics are complex, but you’re talking about a pressure tank, a heat exchanger, and the electronics to drive the reaction. We’re using nickel as the catalyst, not platinum or palladium, so there’s no exotic metals so it’s not an expensive device to build.”

“The electronics are complicated, but it’s less complicated than the cell phone I’m talking to you on”, added Godes.

James asked, “What’s the reaction of people who stop by and see the reaction, some of them for the first time?”

“Robert Godes has worked on [the electronics] for a long time”, said George, “that’s what the patent is covering. The proprietary information that is not disclosed is the actual frequencies that the electronics use to drive the reaction.”

“I keep wanting to mount a video camera in ‘the cube’ where the actual reactor is sitting and operating, said Godes. “I love seeing people who have done things, who’ve actually built things and worked in a laboratory, they come around the corner and they look at it, and they go Wow!”

James wondered who was the family involved in Brillouin?

“You can look at the advisory board which is an extensive list of very prominent people that know the field and know different aspects of the field from the electronic circuit board with Roger Fuller to Dr. McKubre to Edward Beardsworth. We have a variety of angel investors, we don’t have any institutional investors involved in the company at this point.”

“We have alot of potential strategic investors, corporations that have come to the forefront recently because they’re looking at this technology as a game-changer and they’re seeing that for a minimal investment you can get involved in it very early. But as you know most corporations would rather pay ten times as much two years from now rather than do an investment now.”

George has these closing comments.

“You look at all the green energy from solar to photovoltaics, they’re going to make an insignificant change in the overall consumption of energy and the addition to the use of power in the United States and worldwide. But something like the Brillouin Boiler where you can generate and process heat, whether its domestic hot water, heating your home or a building, that can make a significant difference over the next ten years on our oil dependence.

“The fact that people are becoming sensitive to it is a good thing, but we really appreciate your effort, because calling attention to it, people seem to be a little apathetic, a little oblivious. If its not really put in their face, they’re not going to pay attention, because they don’t think they can make a difference. We’re out here everyday making a difference.”

Godes ended with this consideration.

“When people say ‘what are you working on?’, I say “building a practical fusion reactor”. Then they say ‘oh that will cost billions of dollars’. And they’re afraid to touch it.”

“But the reality is, just a few million dollars could actually bring this technology to the point where OEM’s Original Equipment Manufacturers could start producing these in large numbers for general consumption.”

“We could start re-powering coal plants with LENR.”

“That’s when you take an old plant that is no longer functioning and you re-power it. Right now, they do most re-powering they go from coal to natural gas. But that’s still ancient carbon that you’re dredging up. This technology could go and power these coal plants with LENR with the new hydrogen boiler project we’re working on. It really only takes a few million dollars to bring this technology to bear on the energy problems of the world.”

“Just a couple million dollars could make a huge, huge difference. Think if you had the opportunity to buy Apple at $30 a share. You have the opportunity right not with Brillouin Energy.”

Cold Fusion Now!

Related Links

Brillouin Energy Home

Brillouin Energy Quantum Fusion Animations by Ruby Carat March 21, 2012

Funding Dam Almost Breaks for Brillouin Boiler that Uses – Water! by Ruby Carat July 7, 2011

Robert Godes Quantum Fusion Reactor from Rex Research

Brillouin Energy “Quantum Fusion” Animations

Robert E. Godes is the man behind Brillouin Energy, a company developing a hot-water boiler based on cold fusion. But he doesn’t stop at experimentalist; he is also the originator of Quantum Fusion Theory, a theory of the atomic and nuclear events that comprise the reaction. Published in Infinite Energy #82, you can download a copy here.

Recently released animations seek to visualize the phenomenon.
Four videos have been uploaded to the new QuantumFusionChannel on YouTube.

Ain’t nuthin like a video to help imagine a dense, clean, and safe new energy technology.

Related Links

Funding dam almost breaks for Brillouin Boiler that uses – water! by Ruby Carat July 7, 2011