Download the report from Prof. Giuseppe Levi, Dr. David Bianchini and Prof. Mauro Villa (Bologna University) about the experiment.
The blow-by-blow by Daniele Passorini.
This past weekend, a cold fusion reactor was demonstrated in Italy by scientists Sergio Focardi and Andrea A. Rossi. In this demonstration, about 18 liters of water went into the device, and turned into steam.
Speak Italian? Watch their video release on their Youtube channel:
Of course creating steam means creating heat to turn a turbine, and that means creating electrical power. The device apparently ran for an hour giving off an estimated 23,000 Kilojoules of thermal energy!
See Jed Rothwell’s report and preliminary analysis on the News page at his LENR News site http://www.lenr-canr.org/News.htm.
This demonstration is still being confirmed, but many respected researchers are lining up in support of the results, in spite of rumors of inventor and engineer Mr. Andrea Rossi’s background.
The demonstration would be a difficult one to fake with members of the University of Bologna physics department measuring power inputs and outputs, and, with one of the scientists measuring the heat generated being the former president of the Italian Chemical Society. See the Advisors for this project here.
Sterling Allan of PESwiki.com has followed this group of scientists and has posted a comprehensive article on his site here that addresses the issues with Mr. Rossi’s past.
This demonstration, when fully confirmed, will be remarkable as the reaction is not from a deuterium and palladium system, but a reaction involving hydrogen and nickel. The theory of this reaction is outlined in this article “Hydrogen/Nickel cold fusion probable mechanism” from the scientists’ group blog.
Using nickel, as well as other less expensive metals and alloys, will bring the cost of cold fusion power devices much lower than if they had to use palladium, a precious metal that is more costly to mine and produce.
Also, using hydrogen, instead of its isotope deuterium, means that the fuel for this type of reaction consists of the most abundant material in the universe, and on planet earth in the form of water!
From Mr. Allan’s article, he quotes an estimated cost for electricity generated from a device using this technology:
“Rossi estimates that the cost of energy made with this system will be below 1 cent/kWh, in case of electric power made by means of a Carnot cycle, and below 1 cent/4,000 M J in case of thermal power production for heating purposes. That is several times cheaper than energy from fossil fuel sources such as coal or natural gas.
According to Rossi, the demonstrated device shown last Friday is their industrial product that is claimed to be reliable and safe. In normal operation it would produce 8 units of output for every unit of input. Higher levels of output are possible, but can be dangerous. They will soon start serial production of their modules. Combining the modules in series and parallel arrays it is possible to reach every limit of power. The modules are designed to be connected in series and parallels.”
As we learn more about new energy technologies, we find that there are many ways to tap the power of the atom, and even the vacuum of space. Imagine a power device that gives a nuclear-sized power and runs on water? Ultra-clean nuclear power will take humanity to a new level of evolution. There is no reason to continue to subsidize oil, gas, and coal when these new technologies are about to blow! It’s time to get educated and get on board.
If you are in the US, call President Obama on the Whitehouse Comment Line 1-202-456-1111. Call your Congressperson.
If you are elsewhere, call your government officials.
Tell them “there is a clean energy solution: fund LENR research now. We want ultra-clean nuclear power from water. It’s been demonstrated many times over. You said that alternative energy was a high priority. Please demonstrate your commitment to new energy technologies by publicly stating your support and putting dollars into researching this science and engineering the technology of the future.”
By the way, I don’t think you are helping yourself or cold fusion with the link to the guy “running his truck on water”.
He is supposably running it on hydrogen, which is supposably created onboard.
1)The amount of power required to seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen cannot be less then the amount of power created when joining them.
2)The internal combustion engine is VERY inefficient. Therefore we automatically lose much of the power used to seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen.
Therefore, where does the excess power come from to power the truck?
Therefore, the truck is either a scam, or they are using power from another source, which still makes it a poor source of fuel. Remember, the hydrogen is not the fuel. The electricity is the fuel. The hydrogen is simply a less efficient way of turning that electrical power to mechanical power. Heat = loss of power. Wasted energy. LOTS of wasted energy.
It would be better to take that electricy and power an electric motor. Otherwise, what these people are talking about is a perpetual motion machine, because the water can be captured from the exaust and used to power the engine again, forming a perfect loop and never needing a fillup. But that is impossible. The power MUST come from somewhere.
Splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen doesn’t create more power, it only converts it to a different form, and that method also is very, very innefficient. No matter what they say, they cannot make a device that electrolizes water at 100 percent efficiency. And even if they did, it would still not make enough power to power a truck without an aditional power input.
Do they hook it up to a power source at night and create and compress hydrogen? This is the only way, and that would be a sort of battery system for a truck. A not very efficient one.
The truck video is connected to another site that has all sorts of junk science and “perpetual motion machines”, and should only be connected with cold fusion if you want to help discredit it further.
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Thanks Mike for that excellent comment. I’m not sure about the veracity of that truck running on water, and you give some reasons on why it shouldn’t work.
But for me, it is a possibility, for I have seen a very well-designed cold fusion reactor in a lab that uses regular water, and gets the hydrogen for the reaction directly from the water.
The science is real, the technology must be developed.
I do understand the reputation of really good science can be damaged by wild claims. But I believe the best minds will be able to see the difference.
I have alot of conversations about LENR technology when I’m gathering signatures and developing public support for federal LENR funding. A few may be put off by peripheral claims, but by and large, people have no clue whatsoever about what’s happening on the new-energy front, and their knowledge about science is even less. But they are starved for bold solutions and ready to support this already established science.
I believe scientists will continue to work and experiment as long as they are living and breathing until we have a clean energy solution using a fuel of hydrogen, and it will not be far till the device, or motor, will take the hydrogen directly from the water. Once this reaction is nailed down, everything that follows will be incremental.
Hurry, scientists, hurry.
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I want this to work.
But the problem is, it only takes a person who is skilled in deception, social engineering or “magic” to pull the wool over the eyes of people who tend to be fallible. Even scientists and respected physics professor.
Many intelligent people have been fooled by people skilled in the art of misdirection and other such skills and often by very simple tricks.
Again, I hope this is real, after all, just because we don’t understand how it works or how it fits within our current theories of physics, doesn’t mean it isn’t working.
But I think we do need to understand how it works in order to operate such devices safely. Until we know how the heat is generated and by what principles, we can’t be completely certain of safety.
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[...] demonstrated commercial viable cold fusion. The researchers, from the University of Bologna, Andrea Rossi and Sergio Focardi, built an apparatus called an Energy Catalyzer. As the target is immediate commercialization, the [...]
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[...] researchers, from the University of Bologna, Andrea Rossi and Sergio Focardi, built an apparatus called an Energy Catalyzer. As the target is immediate commercialization, the [...]
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CHAT WITH Andrea Rossi TOMORROW about his invention!!!
http://energycatalyzer.blogspot.com/2011/03/ny-teknik-ask-andrea-rossi-about.html
mvh MN
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“There must be no barriers for freedom of inquiry.
There is no place for dogma in science.
The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors.”
… J Robert Oppenheimer
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One of the things that I like about being an Electrician is that I don’t suffer from Status.
It is a terrible disease.
Science is ego free.
It does not matter how highly you value a theory, it could be eliminated with one simple experiment.
Scientists, being human, vest their personalities in a particular theory. Any demonstration that contradicts their theory nullifies their ego. And so they react badly.
However, a true scientist throws his life’s work in the bin, and without rancor, moves on.
Marconi understood the implications of Maxwell’s equations and so invented radio.
Marconi was “proved” to be a charlatan by his peers.
Having a autodidacts understanding of Quantum Uncertainty it does not seem unreasonable that the coulomb barrier is breachable without recourse to high energy.
Just because fusion is only observed in nature in a high energy environment, does not preclude the possibility of it happening elsewhere.
We find Helium trapped in the Earths mantle. Where could that Helium have come from? It is too light for the puny gravity of Earth to hold, and so any archaic helium would have escaped within the 4 billion years of the planets constant churn.
Further to my mind, the heat of the core of our planet is inadequately explained. 4 billion years is a long time. It should have cooled off by now.
I am betting that there is a nuclear reaction keeping it molten. Further I would lay odds it is low energy nuclear fusion.
All hot rocks energy projects are by default Low Energy Nuclear Reactions projects.
Where my ego does get involved is in my certainty that if we do not find a new, clean energy source we will either turn our planet into a Venus or we will destroy civilization with a die-off or nuclear war.
So proud Josh, if you are a disinformation professional I ask you to examine your soul.
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“Scientists, being human, vest their personalities in a particular theory. Any demonstration that contradicts their theory nullifies their ego. And so they react badly.”
That’s certainly true of all the researchers who are invested in cold fusion. They simply ignore demonstrations that contradict their theory, and claim a worldwide conspiracy against them. But scientists in the main behave better than this.
“Marconi understood the implications of Maxwell’s equations and so invented radio. Marconi was “proved” to be a charlatan by his peers.”
Maxwell’s work was widely accepted, and Marconi’s experiments did nothing to challenge any well-established principles or theories. And his experiments were immediately accepted by the scientific establishment, and he was celebrated around the world.
“Having a autodidacts understanding of Quantum Uncertainty it does not seem unreasonable that the coulomb barrier is breachable without recourse to high energy.”
It’s not unreasonable, just extremely rare. These things can be calculated.
“We find Helium trapped in the Earths mantle. Where could that Helium have come from? It is too light for the puny gravity of Earth to hold, and so any archaic helium would have escaped within the 4 billion years of the planets constant churn.”
Well, now you’re putting faith in the theory of gravity. Don’t you think the presence of helium could contradict the theory of gravity, as easily as it could contradict quantum mechanics?
“Further to my mind, the heat of the core of our planet is inadequately explained. 4 billion years is a long time. It should have cooled off by now.”
“To my mind,.. it shouda cooled off” doesn’t really cut it as an argument.
I am betting that there is a nuclear reaction keeping it molten.
Right. Fission provides much of the heat. And the half-life of U-238 is about the age of the earth, so that fits.
“Further I would lay odds it is low energy nuclear fusion.”
I’ll take those odds.
“All hot rocks energy projects are by default Low Energy Nuclear Reactions projects.”
True, fission is LENR.
“Where my ego does get involved is in my certainty that if we do not find a new, clean energy source we will either turn our planet into a Venus or we will destroy civilization with a die-off or nuclear war.”
But you can’t change physics by a desire to save the planet, no matter how fervent.
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You win Josh.
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Excellent sentiments expressed. That’s why I like to have it —- BOTH ways!
The effect is real, the mechanism unknown.
This planet is getting wrecked, and I *surely do hope* this technology is developed before we do that.
When you are on the trail to save the planet, I say hooray. With a little h for now.
As for L. Ron Hubbard, check out my friend Craig Baldwin’s film Mock Up on Mu.
“Synopsis: A radical hybrid of spy, sci-fi, Western, and even horror genres, Craig Baldwin’s Mock Up On Mu cobbles together a feature-length “collage-narrative” based on (mostly) true stories of California’s post-War sub-cultures of rocket pioneers, alternative religions, and Beat lifestyles. Pulp-serial snippets, industrial-film imagery, and B- (and Z-) fiction clips are intercut with newly shot live-action material, powering a playful, allegorical trajectory through the now-mythic occult matrix of Jack Parsons (Crowleyite founder of the Jet Propulsion Lab), L.Ron Hubbard (sci-fi author turned cult-leader), and Marjorie Cameron (bohemian artist and “mother of the New Age movement”). Their intertwined tales spin out into a speculative farce on the militarization of space, and the corporate take-over of spiritual fulfillment and leisure-time. “
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Ruby, the world will keep turning no matter what hot air we blow.
We shall have to keep our fingers crossed that Rossi et al can deliver.
It seems a pity to loose a potential lead for our survival for a few dogmatic demagogues.
“Life’s but a poor player, who frets and struts his stuff upon the stage and is heard of no more.
A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury.
Signifying nothing.” WS.
There are some people who are born screaming into the world, spend their lifes kicking and screaming and then die. And we wonder,
“What was that all about?”
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I don’t know enough to say what’s going on. But heck, even experts in the room don’t know!
We’ll just have to wait and see.
I just can’t accept that this science will never develop. I believe, inevitably, the secret will be unlocked, and we’ll be using this as our primary energy source, and its going to change our world.
If it’s not this year, I hope it’s soon. I don’t know what kind of shape this place is going to be in …
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It’s a shame that belief is not enough to make it true.
If it were, our cars would run on perpetual motion devices, and L Rob Hubbard would come back to life and rid the world of psychiatrists.
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Hi Lorna,
I am glad that you are going dancing. It gives you such pleasure.
The end of the movie is pathetically optimistic.
http://www.zeitgeistmovingforward.com/
What will happen is that the impotent governments of the world will go down with their
“Economists”.
The economists will mis-interpret everything. Their paradigms are fantastical. They think
that it is paper that turns the wheels of civilization, and will print a sea of paper to
save themselves. They already have.
Egypt is a symptom of the phenomenon.
It is Oil, and Oil alone that turns the wheels of our civilization.
In all my searching I have found only one straw to grasp.
The Italians have demonstrated Cold Fusion.
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/
I will continue to re-furbish my yacht and pray that this technology can be implemented
within a meaningful time frame.
Lots of Love,
Your friend,
Arthur
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I am an electrician.
Energy cannot be created or destroyed.
My understanding of what Josh is saying is that there was a 1kW heater coil and they were burning hydrogen. What we were observing was a result of the latent heat of evaporation storing energy, much like a coiled spring stores energy. The release of that energy over a short time is impressive. And this is how we are being fooled.
But you have to account for the integral of all the power under the curve. One has to sum all the momentary energy outputs over the entire curve. This gives the energy output in joules.
Josh is saying that they only chose one moment over that curve and reported that moment.
They did not. They reported the entire curve.
12kW is unsubtle enough for me. It is either there or it is not.
This thing either can be scaled up to 1 MW or it cannot.
Watch this space.
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“Josh is saying that they only chose one moment over that curve and reported that moment.”
If you’re referring to me, no, that’s not what I’m saying.
Levi claims the output is 12 kW during the entire plateau to calculate the total energy output. This requires discontinuous 8-fold changes in the power transfer at the beginning and end of the plateau, and also at the beginning and end of the small dip below boiling in the middle of the plateau.
“12kW is unsubtle enough for me. It is either there or it is not.”
The evidence they use to claim it is there (dry steam) is not believable because it requires 8-fold discontinuous changes in the power transfer, and because the very flat temperature is strong evidence that the phase change is not complete.
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I was referring to you Josh.
I am afraid that you are not making yourself very clear to me.
The way I see it is that we have a black box. We do not know what is in that box but we can make some deductions.
We can sum all the energy going into the black box.
Then we sum all the energy coming out.
And we subtract them from each other.
All the energy has to be accounted for.
If there is 60 times the energy coming out of the black box than going in, then where does it come from?
But like Rossi says the time for mental masturbation is over.
He either produces the goods or he doesn’t.
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Well Artie, I’m arguing that there is no evidence that there is 60 times the energy coming out than going in. I’m arguing, based on the temperature profile, that there is less than twice the energy out vs in, and that that can be accounted for by chemical processes inside the box.
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Levi’s interpretation of the Rossi demo does not hold water.
*What is observed:
The temperature of the output fluid begins at about 15C, and increases over a period of about 1/2 an hour to near 100C (101.6 is claimed), and then remains there for another 30 to 40 minutes, depending on which test you look at. Then when the power is cut off and (in test 1) the water flow is increased, the temperature drops back toward ambient. In test 2, the rate of decrease is about the same as the rate of increase before boiling. In Test 2, the steam was checked with an “air quality monitor” and pronounced dry. They do not say when that check was made. The average input power in both tests during the plateau was about 1 kW, not 400 W as has been frequently quoted.
*What is claimed by Levi:
Given the flow rate, and the temperature change, the amount of power transferred to the water at 99C is about 1.2 kW. One minute later, when the temperature reads 101.6C, Levi claims the water is all being vaporized, meaning the power transferred is more than 10 kW. (His calculation of the total energy assumes the power is the same during the time the temperature is on the plateau.) So, although it took 30 minutes to increase from zero to 1.2 kW, he expects his readers to believe it takes only one minute or so to increase to 10 kW. When it reaches the necessary power transfer to vaporize all the water, the increase stops abruptly; 5% more power would increase the temperature of the steam by 60C.
*Why it doesn’t hold water:
1. Presumably, the H-Ni system is not aware of what is happening inside the conduit, so the notion that at the exact moment the temperature hits boiling, its power output would increase 8-fold is not believable. Even less believable is the notion that it would stop increasing exactly when the water is all converted to steam, and not a per cent more. How could the nickel know? No, the fact that the temperature becomes constant over a long time period should be taken as strong evidence that the phase change is not complete, and therefore that the actual power transfer is not known.
2. The only way to increase the power delivered to the water, assuming the flow rate is constant, is to increase the temperature of the conduit. At the rate of temperature increase before boiling is reached (corresponding to ~ 1 kW per 30 minutes), you might expect an additional kW or so over the next 30 minutes, which on average would amount to less than 2 kW during the plateau.
3. In test 2, the temperature is not pinned at the plateau during the entire period, and in fact, about half-way through, briefly drops by a few degrees. If the power is really 10 kW just before and after this dip, then not only would the conduit have to be heated by hundreds of degrees in a minute or so, it would have to cool equally fast. However, you can see that, without increasing the flow rate, the cooling rate at the end of the run is much slower than this.
*What would make 10 kW believable:
If the power transfer to the water increases at a continuous rate, the output fluid temperature will increase to boiling over a time period, and then remain at boiling for about 7 times that time period (at least), and then increase to higher temperatures. When the temperature increases substantially above boiling (>110C), you can be reasonably sure that the steam is dry. (I say “at least” because the transfer of heat to liquid is faster than it is to steam or mist.) (A degree or two above boiling is not unreasonable for a mist/steam mixture not in equilibrium, since the steam component can be heated above boiling.)
So, to believe the 10 kW claim, the temperature should be increased to 110C or higher. If
Levi’s interpretation were correct, and all the water was converted to steam, then a slightly lower water flow would cause the temperature to increase rapidly. And yet, even though the flow rates in the two tests were quite different, the temperature was exactly the same.
*What is probably happening:
1. The claim of dry steam is not credible, and certainly not from the moment the fluid hits 100C. When boiling begins, the turbulent flow of rapidly escaping steam and boiling water is likely to produce a steam/mist mixture. Whatever the “air quality monitor” measured, this claim requires more than a pronouncement from a hand-picked academic lackey to be believed.
2. Looking at the shape of the temperature curve in test 2, assuming a smooth variation of the power transfer, suggests that at most the power increases by a factor of 2 during the plateau, giving an average power output during the plateau of less than 2 kW. The input was briefly reduced to 400 W in test 2, and that seems to correspond to the dip in temperature below 100C, consistent with this interpretation.
3. If the flow rate measurement is accepted, and that could have been made much more definitive, then less than 1 kW is being produced by the reactor. This could easily be explained by a hydrogen reaction; combustion would require only a few tens of grams of hydrogen. Considering the sloppy quality control in the measurement of the hydrogen consumption, in which they were almost confounded by a piece of tape, hiding a 30-g change in 14 kg would not have been difficult. If the reaction were nuclear, then less than 1 mg hydrogen would be needed, and a connection to a hydrogen bottle would have been completely unnecessary.
Extending this comedy of errors to 24 hours would not make nuclear activity any more believable.
Now, if it were run for 24 hours, without electricity or hydrogen connections, with output steam at 150C, and a flow rate easily observable by emptying a large reservoir, and open to scientists who are on record as skeptics (Bob Park and Nathan Lewis), and willing to monitor the experiment continuously, then you may win over some converts. Good luck with that.
And I don’t see why asking for energy that exceeds the device’s weight in the best chemical fuel by 10 or 100 times should be such a tall order. Advocates repeatedly remind us that the reactions have a million times the energy density of chemistry. They have a factor of 10,000 left over.
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Has the possibility of a chemical reaction, involving nickel hydrides, been considered ? The decomposition of Ni hydride is a strongly exothermic chemical process.
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Hi B.W. Yes, they have considered this.
Here are a few preliminary calculations done by Jed Rothwell of http://www.lenr.org, who has alot of scientific papers on that topic, as well as a report by Prof. Levi on the calorimetry.
http://www.lenr-canr.org/News.htm
Download Prof. Levi’s .pdf report for the official numbers.
Here is a quote from a report http://www.22passi.it/downloads/LENRMain.pdf by Mauro Villa
“Energy production. To test the claim of non-chemical origin of the
energy produced, the measure of the output-input power difference integrated
times the measuring time (i.e. the total energy produced) is
needed and should be compared with the mass and size of the energy
source. For example 1 MWh produced by 1 g of material is a good indication
of a nuclear origin, while 5Wh produced by 30 g of material is
an indication of chemical origin. In the present test, as a precautionary
attitude, whatever was not known, not disclosed or not understood has
been considered as the energy source. This forces to consider relevant
only very large energy productions, as those described in [1] where the
reactor has been working for weeks and monthes.”
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About Rossi “criminal background”…
Rossi was doing a legal activity getting fuel from waste, till law changed stating that kind of wastes was not to be treated in the Rossi’s way.
Anyway after several trails proofs against Rossi were considered not relevant and Rossi was condemned only for financial troubles related to the bankruptcy of his companies due to the stop of activities. (large investments and activity suspended by changes in the law).
I do not consider him a criminal but a victim of larger economic interests (i.e. waste treatment industries).
Anyway the experiment itself is rather old (about 16 years) and come out as a laboratory accident in which neither Rossi and Focardi were originally involved. Focardi was consulted by Piantelli (a biophysicist not working on Cold Fusion at all) just to understand a very strange phenomena occurred in Piantelli laboratory.
I think this machine is somehow the industrialization of that laboratory phenomena.
Nevertheless Rossi & Focardi are stating that a working 1MW central will be ready within the end of the year, so let’s take some popcorn and let’s see the show.
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Hey thanks Romolo for that background.
Honestly though, as long as his boiler works, I won’t be worrying about his past.
I can only hope the claims of a 1MW unit are true. We’re all feeling the anxiety of the end of the oil age – cold fusion can’t come soon enough!
Do you have any info on the factory where there is supposedly a working unit? Have people been knocking down their doors trying to see it?
This should be interesting to see how it all goes down!
Small companies have an advantage to move quickly on engineering and implementing this technology before large corporations muscle in and governments regulate, but maybe they won’t be able to maintain…
Or perhaps a renaissance of independence spreads … and small groups all over the planet design and engineer their own cells, and liberate humanity for all time from energy slavery!
Woah.
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Truly an exciting breakthrough if it pans out. Ruby I hope you’ll let us know if/when any legit publicly traded companies get rolling on LENR.
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YO H! Wow. Legit publicly traded companies! I look forward to that day!
Companies exist with technology to test now, but they need funding to do so.
Investors most likely will fund companies that are testing out proto-type designs.
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page
gets lots of submissions from inventors and their start-up companies though a critical analysis of any of these businesses should be performed.
This is still very much a science. And more engineering needs to be done.
But it’s closer….
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Thanks R!
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Hey Compaz!
Nice details. This is such exciting news.
I have been imagining how this was going to go down, how cold fusion technology would enter the mainstream.
It’s going to happen so fast – when it does.
Companies will open up around the world, start advertising and selling, before the majority of people even know about it!
Yeah I figure Obama knows – he should.
I just want to make it harder for him to pretend he doesn’t.
Thanks for the update. Post more when you can.
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NEWS (ENGLISH)
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJbrieftechn.pdf
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hello ruby!and to the site.Glad that you make an article to that.
for the projedt we talked before— the author will response me in a little period of time.
and for the rossi-focardi device, i’m here in Italy, so i can heard some roumors better of the experimentation and all the chatter around-
here some info
-Rossi generally in Italy is considerated like not a saint as for a human bieng… but anyways for a scientist he’s really intelligent and capable person.
-rossi has in the last year worked with the u.s. DOD (dip of defence)— this leak is from one a well know phisichs in Italy.
and one of the facilitis*and companies he referred on is going to open in the U.S.
yeasterday in fact was an update to the world of what he and others has just well know maybe even 1-2 or more years back.
-THE TOP IMPORTANT THING IN THAT APPARATUS ROUMORS SAYS THAT IS A(or 2)SECRET MATERIAL HE US WITH THE NICKEL AS CATALIZER FOR IGNITE REACTION
-he has got trasmutation of the nickel in copper— thi is similar to wath many italian scientist has experienced when they has used “tungsteno”(i don’t kno the english name) but after the experiment they has fuond even trace of SILICIUM..
for now that’s it , but if i know something.
and i think you don’t have to call to Obama… they are aware of this long before Rossi and focardi.
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